My last week of saying good-bye to Orthodoxy has begun, and after a lengthy google search I could find nothing relevant for “leaving orthodoxy” and thus I take it upon myself to create the post I was looking for all day, or at least to start the process of creating the post I wanted to read.
There is very little out there for modern orthodox folks who are no longer buying it. The Ultra-orthodox apostates can turn to organizations such as Footsteps in the states. The organization guides people who seek it out towards basic skill training, GEDs, and other survival tools. (Unchosen by Hella Winston tells you all about this organization). I hear that Israel also has a simular NGO, but I could not locate its website, if you know about it please write in.
In either case the modern orthodox don’t need GEDs – they have higher education from top universities, what they need (that the ultra-orthodox might need as well) are people to talk to about their spiritual life. Unraveling a system of meaning is terrifying when you see no other system to replace it – no other will of God, besides the normative orthodox observance. After all, that is the party-line in mainstream orthodoxy – they, apparently, hold a monopoly on the will of God.
Thus many who leave, continue to believe that Orthodoxy is essentially – Judaism/truth/Divinity and they simply do not like it, and thus leaving symbolizes rejecting Judaism/truth/divinity.
There needs to be a place to go for conversation on this issue – a place where the Will of God is understood in contingent and multiplicities ways. Where the ethical problems in Orthodoxy can be discussed – Where can you go to ask a question and receive an intellectually honest answer that takes into account multiple currents in Judaism (halachic and non-halachic) alongside world thought at large. For example, at least for me this question was very important “Why would God make me a woman, if I feel post-comfortable in male roles?” As a very young woman, I loved the apologetics about the specialness of woman’s primary roles as private and domestic. As a 22, I understood the injustice of circumscribed lives. (I also understand that many people who are just and wonderful and thoughtful continue to find meaning in Orthodox.) There are hundreds of similar questions that challenge the ethics of a system where your birth determines what you can and cannot do.
The one thing I wanted to find on the web and could not is the following message. People do not leave Orthodoxy because it is to hard, they leave because they are seeking the Will of God. At least I am. If you are interested in discussing these questions from any end of the spectrum. Please post, I cannot wait to here form people who might know of some outlets for this conversation.
The organization in Israel is called Hillel (not, of course, related to the Hillel of college campus fame).
If you’re in the States, call Footsteps. They don’t do much with former MOs, but Malkie Schwartz who runs it may know of resources for you, or she may be willing to set something up through Footsteps.
What a great post. Thanks for sharing. While I was never Jewish, I have, over the past couple of years, left Christianity. It sounds like much the same issues. I just couldn’t follow the teachings anymore, the more I thought about them, the less sense they made. I still have that little voice inside my head saying “what if I’m wrong?”, I could be damned to hell for eternity. However, I also know that that is a result of the teachings I had consumed over many years.
As far as resources, I really can’t offer you much. There is a blogging site I’ve discovered since creating my own blog. The site is
http://de-conversion.com
I haven’t spent much time on it at all, and it may be geared more toward former Christians, but someone there might also have some other contacts for you.
I wish you the best! I know it is scary, but you’ll be just fine.
I think I’ve had somewhat of a similar journey.
it’s good to have people who are in the same place to talk to– a year ago in israel, where most of my friends were either happily ortho, or had grown up non-ortho, it was always such a relief to find someone who really understood, for example, both my attraction to egal davenning, and my hesitations (huge mental barrier).
I’m also lucky that a couple of my friends are in similar places, so we all talk to each other, and I’ve never thought to actively look for a group.
come to DC
oh, wait, you actually are, right?
I read your message and understand your crisis. I myself till 23 years old was confused with questions on haskofa. I followed all types of half baked so called jewish leaders. I was searching for answers. I was lucky to meet the great Rabbi Avigdor Miller who opened my eyes through using authentic Torah lenses. My questions were put to rest and I am forever thankful to Hashem for sending me this Rabbi who gave me directions in the highway of life.
— People do not leave Orthodoxy because it is to hard, they leave because they are seeking the Will of God. —
Not all. Some of us leave not because we are “seeking the Will of God,” but rather because we conclude that there is no god.
It’s true that Footsteps mainly caters to UO types, but many of those individuals struggle with exactly what you sound like you’re going through: Formulating a new value system, forging a new identity, trying to determine what from their past life holds personal value and is worth keeping and what is just an unnecessary relic, attempting to ascertain what parts of Judaism they still believe in and what they don’t, and even if they don’t believe in it all, what parts may still have value and what don’t.
The story of those who leave is not at all monolithic and you may find some kinship there. You also may not. You never know.
Hi. You may find this site interesting: http://sevenfatcow.wordpress.com/
[...] playing a girl: ruminations on a constructed world The will of God and leaving Orthodox Judaism [...]
You’re right about there being no good help for non-UO recoverees. OTOH, would you really prefer to have that help, but need it because you were raised UO? I’d guess not.
You sound like you have your head on your shoulders. You’ll do fine.
If you find another type jusdaism or whatever that is totally on fire and intensely committed (not nice nice feel good) please tell me about it.
If you find another type Judaism or whatever that is totally on fire and intensely committed (not nice nice feel good) please tell me about it.
i like what u have to say..i used to write a blog called meeyus.com but the rabbis in lakewood got us shut down.(they traced the domain to a freind of mine then called his boss and asked him to give his employee/my friend an ultimatum: shut the site down or lose your job.
my friend decided keep his job. to tell you the truth at that point i realized there was no hope.
i kept my mouth shut for 2 years
then my buddy started sevenfatcow and i had a lot of fun with that but bottom line: its hopeless
the best analogy: warsaw 1939. thats where its at. so what can you do? make sure you have a valid passport
america is wobbling. when the economy dipd racial tensions rise. and guess which group will ultimately get caught in the middle?
i would love to chat with you more, but im am busy reconstructing my foreskin.
“gotta be prepared”
who was it; wiesel, wiesenthal? who said: only the paranoid survived”
I would be very happy to discuss your concerns, xanadudragonfly. You have my email, please do write me, I will look forward to it. I had a Jewish grandfather but converted along with my wife in an Orthodox conversion. Long story about orthodox rabbis not recognizing eachother’s authority, treatment as a second class citizen by the haredim and some modern orthodox and a lack of spiritual fulfillment in spite of scrupulous observance of the mitzvot. I haven’t said goodbye, yet, but my wife and I both want to leave Orthodox Judaism.
New to this posting this:
but am also former ortho (but not UO)professional. Left the community 9 years ago in my late thirties, parent of preteen and teenage children, during a bitter divorce. Now happily re-married. Your post resonated with me enough to reply for the first time ever.
If you have found a former ortho group comparable to Footsteps please let me know. Otherwise, right now I read Conservative Jewish philosophy, such as Elliot Dorff’s “The Unfolding Tradition” and try to attend a local rabbi’s (non-ortho of course) weekly theology class. Also, I have recently come into contact with Footsteps. Not only former Ultras there, but rather all types and Malkie is an extraordinary human being.
You have my e-mail in case you want to correspond.
I was blessed with an education in the Mir so when i had to start out on my own I could still incorporate the good values of Torah into my life. It basically had to do with finding the lenient opinion in rabbinical things and still holding to the Torah restrictions. I don’t say this is the best or right path but it worked for me for twenty years to try to hold to some type of sanity after i saw the entire Jewish orthodox world is rotten to the core. Even that took me many years to discover. And I would have been happy to ignore it if it did not turn around and bite me.
When I found myself slowly being boiled alive by hungry cannibal who looked like orthodox rabbis I clawed my way out of the pot and ran for my life very burnt and scared and scarred. so for the last twenty years I have been writing essays to myself trying to figure it all out. Was it my blood they wanted? Or my gold filings? But to keep my sanity, betrayed by the best and brightest and holiest of the frum world, I kept to what is from the Torah(Deurraita) and said about most rabbinical decrees that since the reason for them is gone, the decree itself is nullified. The Gemara gives the reason for most rabbinic decrees so it is usually very easy to tell if this applies. it is the opinion of the Rashbam, the Raavad, and tosfot in at least three places in shas -I don’t remember this second where they are. I don’t say this is right but it helped me keep my sanity while trying to figure things out.
(Actual the above story is slightly understated. what really happened was much worse and horrible and coordinated by frum rabbis of many communities. Later in Israel as i hung out by the Kotel and talked with people I discovered the same story repeated all the time in Israel.)
I discoved the iceburg effect. for every frum jew there are twenty others destroyed by yidishkeit.
Dear Girl,
I was very interested in your courage and conviction to admit that you were not inspired by OJ and that you had the courage to leave. I have a daughter trapped in OJ, she has been brainwashed, drugged, sexually exploited, hypnotised and many many more things have been done to her. Unfortunately she has been so well brainwashed and under control by both her husband and the rabbis involved that her thinking process has almost been totally destroyed. My daughter was led down the path thinking that the real God was at the other end. Unfortunately this is not the case as inside OJ there is another element that is far from godly. If you have any suggestions I would be very grateful.
It’s ironic that the last time I searched for leaving judaism was not long before you made this post. My story is about a girl who was standing too close to the edge of the ocean and got pulled-in by the tide; a riptide. Or, maybe it was a tornado, a natural disaster, that sucked me up and spit me out some twenty turbulent years later.
Guess what Toto? I’m not in Kansas anymore. Now, I have four teenage children born in less than four years and a husband that I married out of “family” pressure that I really dislike. AND I do not believe in orthodoxy per se.
I was UO for over twenty years, I couldn’t take it anymore, there was no joy in my life, just drudgery. I am now going through a very ugly civil divorce, we have the get and it is very difficult on my six children. The oldest three won’t speak to me. I didn’t know there was any support system at all. I never knew anyone else left it! I am amazed.
Cheer up, everbody! There cannot be one God if there are two sexes. If one sex is annulled, the laws of physics fill the vacuum and the other sex becomes a spiritual hermaphrodite. A very powerful condition but ultimately sterile. Good luck to you all.
I understand the feeling. I am struggling to leave Orthodoxy myself. I am not leaving so much because of the extremism, though it is a part. The main reason is because I cannot accept the divine origin of the Torah.
At the same time, it leaves nothing else the will of God. The only thing I can say is good luck to each individual in his or her personal search and I hope you find truth, even if it is relative. Tonight is Shavuot and since I cannot accept the traditional account of what supposedly happened on this night about 3300 years ago, I am left with searching for my own truth. Truth does exist, even if we percieve it though our own subjective experience. And there is nothing wrong with picking and choosing. There is no right way to be a Jew.
I have decided to leave OJ after gradually becoming very observant over the years, more or less. No matter how unobservant I was from time to time, the main pull to OJ remained until I called my own bluff and eventually kept all the laws. But I began to feel very uneasy doing so, something was not right. It was not jiving with my inner beliefs about humanity and the universe. I felt some of it was dehumanizing and created division & resentment at the national & individual level. I felt there were strong psychological components as to why individuals and communities worship, as well as financial advantages, which made it all seem less genuine. I noticed certain behaviors were more common in those who rigidly observed than in those who did not. On a personal level I did not have good experiences, never really fit in. I did not know if I was the cause of that, or the effect. What once meant peace & solace became constant demand & deprivation. I felt punished somehow by being more restricted & forced to be different & work harder than others. Certain things did not make sense to me so I drew some of my own conclusions. I began looking at other religions and noticed similarities among all. How can was all be he chosen? Leaving was very hard, as we are creatures of habit, and I felt a lot of reactive guilt. I also feared offending other observers. Even though I was not strong enough to remain OJ (or perhaps I was strong enough to leave), I still respect others’ observance. Eventually my emancipation felt like the right thing to do and I began to enjoy myself more. I, too, had trouble finding posts by infidels and others specifically leaving OJ, or any organized religion. I was not born into a very observant family, so I may not be considered a true escapee; perhaps I yearned for the familiar once again. Therefore, I am more fascinated by the stories of those who left OJ after being born & raised that way.
You are a very sincere person and very deep. This is why you question. I have also been on a long quest, converting orthodox and now leaving. I’ve found it scary out here, but less scary than in there with the orthodox. Just don’t forget that most jews are not so fundamentalist, most attending for social/cultural reasons and to be part of a crowd. Just because you are now unorthodox doesn’t mean you have to lose all your friends and start again- unless you want to of course! Just declare that you don’t believe to people when they talk their rubbish and they can’t do anything about it. Those who tolerate you are fine, and those who don’t are entitled to their opinion as well. Don’t forget that they may even change, just like you have. Change is natural and we all grow: towards or away. Now I see that people who accept to be in a religion become very limited and small people. It’s such a shame but that is their freedom to choose. So where should us ‘apostates’ find our spiritual nourishment? Well, that is very personal for each of us. If you still believe in God this can be one route. For me, as a scientist, I find infinitely more spirituality in everything scientific than in those bible stories, many of which must be untrue e.g. why is there no evidence of a worldwide flood in the ground, why does all the fossil, archaeological and genetic evidence show that we are not descended from Noah or Adam? Science is so wonderful, awesome extraordinary and, the best part, evidentual and provable. Just go to the Natural History Museum and see the infinitely complex story of geology and the evolution of life on Earth. It’s the most wonderful story.
So be happy, don’t worry, keep asking those questions, remember that you can still be friends with people who disagree with you, chill out and remember…wishy-washy people are the majority. Whilst you are far from wishy-washy, you can still find friends among them. Finding deep friends is harder, but inevitable. Get married to a freethinker-that brings stability-that’s what I’m trying to do!
P.S. I love the comments people have posted. I can see there are so many good people who also have doubts: See! You can be a good person without being OJ! I wish I could meet you lovely people!
Hi I am Jewish and am old to Modern Orthodox Liberal Judaism but new to Modern Orthodox Machmir Judaism.
Seems like a tiny difference, huh? But no. Anyway I come from a secular background and have no problem incorporating the will of God with Orthodoxy.
I don’t know who is telling you that you cannot live out your career passion that God has called upon you for, and to be able to be shomer Shabbos, but maybe you need to find a new community or a new Rabbi who supports your calling.